Critique of slider system; number of notches

first i would kindly ask mods not to close or move this thread. i'm not asking for tactical help nor i provide any, just disscusing game's feature. thank you.

also i'd like to say i'm not a slider hater but more i think about sliders and number of notches, more ilogical most of them seem. in this thread i will concentrate more on number of notches each slider has than their contents. it would be too much.

my major concern is that each notch should be concrete instruction and should represent different idea than previous or next notch. we should also know for sure what we're demanding from players. i belive real life managers don't use scale or abstact instructions, for example either you play short passing game or you play something else. there's no way manager will let player play 20 yard passes but not 25 yard ones. that's not how it should be. this example may be slightly exaggerated but still...

here's an exellant discussion about mentality slider: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=108695 so, thanks god, i'll skip that one. please remember this is all only IMO, feel free to disagree (as isuckatfm says).

CREATIVE FREEDOM

menual says it's about letting your players to attempt more dificult and ambitious stuff. what i'd like to say here is that either you allow player to do that or you don't. IRL what you say is 'you can ignore easy options and tempo, you're Cesc Fabregas, make something happen'. basiclly you give him time and space - ON THE BALL (i'm not shouting) - to attempt more dificult and ambitious, thus to be CREATIVE. nothing else and nothing more. on the other hand your CB is instructed (when having ball) to pass or run with ball as you have instructed him with passing, run with ball, long shots, TTB and tempo instructions. he's a CB, he doesn't need to concern with creating things just to pass simply or bring the ball out of his line.

(i'd like to add that CF should be highly individual/positional instruction defently not global)

to simplify tactical interface and more importantly to know for sure what each notch meens, it would be nice that CF has no more than 3 options (ok, i could settle for 5)

- LOW CREATIVE FREEDOM

player's not instructed to be creative, nor using too much flair and skill. just simply to follow given instructions; tempo, passing instructions, RwB, LS and TTB or in other words 'pass that ball and do it safely, or clear it!'.

*** quality players, stars and attacking minded players should soon become unhappy with such role

- NORMAL CREATIVE FREEDOM

player is already instructed to attempt more. he should follow given instructions but also try creative stuff when he thinks it's apropriate, mostly such things should be happening in opponent's third.

- HIGH CREATIVE FREEDOM

doesn't need to much explenation. you give time and space to your star, to play his game. of course this shouldn't meen such player doesn't follow your other instructions like defending. here i'm talking about players who can really make difference.

CONCLUSION:

FM players would benefit from such simple instructions with their detailed description. we would easily spot where we're going right or wrong. also real life managers do it this way probably - simple & concrete. it's either A, B or C. there's no such thing as 'be 5% more creative'. as i said, maybe 2 more mixed notches would make sense but 20?!?

forget to add... stay tuned, my favourite slider - Time wasting to follow...

TIME WASTING

Time Wasting desrictiption in menual is clear enough. it says TW is a defensive tactic designed to neutralise the attacking threat and frustrate the opposition. many teams will use it late in the game to hold onto the lead.

again i believe it's either that team is wasting time or it isn't. inferior team will try to delay and slow the game down, team that needs or wants to score will try do just the opposite. it's just like 'hold the ball' instruction, there should be just two options. sort of. what does 5th notch mean? 'i want you to waste time in 25% of our attacks'?

of course a team will waste time differently in 10th minute and in 89th minute. there's also an obvious cultural difference and frequancy in using this tactic between english and italian or latin football for example (just like tempo or closing down). but we need to know exactly when and how to use this tactic. we need to understand clearly what's the difference between 8th and 13th notch, if there is any. what does low, normal and high time wasting mean? imo, if any team needs or wants to score they won't waste any time, that's against logics. but it's quite usuall to see team slowing down when they score. then they push Time Wasting slider a notch higher.

what would make sense to me are 3 (maybe 5) notches on Time Wasting slider:

- NONE TIME WASTING

this tactic is employed when a team wants to score (mostly when superior team meets inferior). gung-ho aproach, typical for high tempo football cultures, idea is to brake opponets as early as possible, you won't see many of it in Rio de Janeiro or Mediteranian...

- NORMAL TIME WASTING

this is more usual aproach, it can work with quicker style but players in general need to start thinking about posession. you give them time and room to delay play, tactical discipline is more important. this tactic is used when two equal teams meet each other or when superior team scores goal or two or at the end of games etc.

- HIGH TIME WASTING

that's what they do when Milan meets Inter or Juve. military disipline and waiting for opponents to make mistake. it's also a comon aproach when inferior team meets superior or very late in the game. as it is said in menual the idea is to neutralise the attacking threat, keep posession as much as possible and frustrate the opposition, not beautiful to watch but can be rewording.

CONCLUSION:

if there wasn't Mentality slider i think Time Wasting would be the one who could easily replace it. basicly it is aproach you want to take in a game depending on what you want from it. to simplify it, if you want to score, your aproach will not include time wasting and vice versa. this tactic is also linked to football tradition and manager preferences.

maybe i should have said, this wasn't ment to be only a poll or monologue, would apreciate any input

thanks

I think that 20 notches is OK for each slider - I wouldnt like it to change and then have to adjust for ages to a different slider module in FM10. Having said that, I understand what you are saying - that each notch should mean a new idea/approach - but its ok for now IMO.

I went with "Too Much", but I would have liked an option of "Needs Tweaked" 20 notches is a bit much IMO, 3 or 5 are too few and would make it too easy.

this wouldn't be a change, just simplifying. contenst doesn't change it only contracts. i'd rather have 3 concrete options than 20. my argument here is that RL managers don't use percentage or numerical scales - which sliders with 20 notches basicly are. instead you have 3 (5) simple instructions. imo this way player attributes would be more important and it would be easier spot things in ME.

what i'd be glad to see is to simplify team instructions and add more individual ones. i was thinking about writing about that too, it's funny how no one is willing to put his opinion here having in mind SI are planing to change tactical interface!

I went with "Too Much", but I would have liked an option of "Needs Tweaked" 20 notches is a bit much IMO, 3 or 5 are too few and would make it too easy.

that's why people have keyboards

i don't think it's about having a fixed number of notches, rather quality instructions. i wouldn't mind 30 notches if i knew what each notch means. but Time Wasting really shouldn't have more than 5 notches. do you agree with that?

what i don't understand is 'it would be too easy' argument? it's not like instructions should be misty afterall... so more mysterious

a manager is, more respect he has of his players?

I think people are soemtimes unwilling to get caught up in a tactical debate, that usually sees them posting all day long

I see what you're saying and simplifying team instructions, whilst adding more individual instructions, certainly appeals to me. However, IMO 3-5 options are too few, in the same way that 20 are too many. Tactical tweaking would be too easy and a winning formula would be too easy to come accross.

In saying that, i'm trying to base my answer on general forum opinion, if it was down to me i'd have it simplyfied as much as possible and the reasons are in my "Terrible At FM" thread

i don't think it's about having a fixed number of notches, rather quality instructions. i wouldn't mind 30 notches if i knew what each notch means. but Time Wasting really shouldn't have more than 5 notches. do you agree with that?

I definately agree with that! Greater transparency in the tactical system is essential and if it isn't provided, better training in the tactical system is essential. It doesn't matter how many notches you have, if you don't understand them fully, you're up poo creek.

basicly what you're saying is that 20 notches are sort of difficulty level in this game? if we understood all instructions it would be too easy. that makes sense to me.

5 notches = easy level

10 notches = medium level

20 notches = you don't have a bloody idea what each notch is level

Who's to say we would know what 5 nothces do, though

that's true but at least we would improve our chances for 200%...and that is a lot of notches..

Would you be hapy with 20 notches, if you were presented with a detailed explanation of those notches and how they affect each other e.g. THIS thread?

I don't really care about the number of notches on a slider or the number of different instructions I get to choose from as long as I can actually understand what each different setting means to my teams way of playing. I'm sure for instance that if SI were to graphically represent the width or d-line on the tactics screen so that with each move in the slider the players would get wider or narrower on the 2D pitch right before your eyes then it would become apparent that 20 settings was probably too many but also that the narrowest setting was probably too narrow anyway.

I believe that the emphasis should be more on individual instructions rather than team instructions, which should be more generalistic regarding formation etc. The reason is that every player has different attributes, strengths and weaknesses and whilst I understand that it would probably be very difficult to represent in 3D without the whole game looking disjointed I feel it is the way forward. Lets take Ronaldo & Park at Man Utd. They often play on the same team on opposite flanks but I would suggest that their instructions from Fergie are extremely different, in-fact some would argue that the reason Park plays is so that Ronaldo can be given a free role in the team as Park will do his tracking back etc. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

Would you be hapy with 20 notches, if you were presented with a detailed explanation of those notches and how they affect each other e.g. THIS thread?

that reminds me of Driving School feature in Richard Burns Rally, i don't think it's a bad idea if you learned about each slider but probably more suitable for FML.

i wouldn't mind those 20 notches but in general i think it's too much. i never tweak my tactics in 1-notch manner, 4 or 5 is what makes difference to me...

I think there are too many notches for a given position. These notches should be disabled, or when you go to select them something should pop up on the screen advising you you are doing something stupid.

I.e Closing down on a defender. The notches available or highlighted should be sensible ones. notches 1-10/12, anything higher is detrimental to any tactic. When you advise your defender to close down the whole pitch something should advise you he will be eager to leave his DC position and rush out to close down etc... (or at least a box should appear saying 'for advanced users' or something)

Mitja, I think everything you say makes perfect sense to me. The gamer needs to be clear where he is going wrong, what affects his changes have on the game. Currently FM is like COD4 where the player has a controller in his hand but doesn't know which button does what or by how much.

Clarity and transparency are key. However SI has never given us this, they like to cloak the game in secrecy, not let anyone now how it actually works, making it one big puzzle.

I very much doubt that this will ever change. Some companies have faults that, unless the people at the top go, will never change for the better. Unfortunately for us, ambiguity and secrecy are two of the faults SI has. Not clearly explaining how the controls of a game work seems crazy to me but it's what SI likes to do so ther you have it.

Half the time I don't think the guys at SI know how things work. I remember not so long ago the manual and in game help said that not giving a team talk was like 'hairdryer treatment'. You should only do it if you want to show how upset you are. If SI don't all know how the game works then how are we expected to?

Moan over I really do long for the day where the 'game' turns into a game and not a puzzle.

The sliders are not intuitive and exactly what altering a setting does is unclear. The manual which comes with the game is singularly unhelpful in various respects.

Like schuey100 I doubt that we will see serious changes in SI's approach, even though they have said that they will look at the tactical interface.

Looking forward to the new CM. Perhaps they will get it right.

I don't really care about the number of notches on a slider or the number of different instructions I get to choose from as long as I can actually understand what each different setting means to my teams way of playing. I'm sure for instance that if SI were to graphically represent the width or d-line on the tactics screen so that with each move in the slider the players would get wider or narrower on the 2D pitch right before your eyes then it would become apparent that 20 settings was probably too many but also that the narrowest setting was probably too narrow anyway.

I believe that the emphasis should be more on individual instructions rather than team instructions, which should be more generalistic regarding formation etc. The reason is that every player has different attributes, strengths and weaknesses and whilst I understand that it would probably be very difficult to represent in 3D without the whole game looking disjointed I feel it is the way forward. Lets take Ronaldo & Park at Man Utd. They often play on the same team on opposite flanks but I would suggest that their instructions from Fergie are extremely different, in-fact some would argue that the reason Park plays is so that Ronaldo can be given a free role in the team as Park will do his tracking back etc. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

closing down could easily be represented graphically, then we would know for sure how to set it up. that's how RL managers do it probably. 'this is where i want you to start closing them down' very simple. when you divide a pitch into 20 pieces you get the picture 20 notches of closing down is too much imo. 20 x 5 meters. 10 (10 x 10 meters) notches would be fine. ***football pitch is usualy 100 meters long.

d-line and width would be a bit harder as it is relative to where the ball is to be found. wibble wooble would be needed.

completly agree with your last paragraph and i really hope SI are thinking in that direction. i don't think that could be achieved with this slider system, we would need detailed individual instructions. problem is how to make AI think more like humans.

Like schuey100 I doubt that we will see serious changes in SI's approach, even though they have said that they will look at the tactical interface.

that's also my concern. i saw Paul's post a couple of days ago where he said in a joke, he'll make AI read TT&F.

i know this is only speculation but what i expect them to change is to put sliders into pre-set tactics - 'tactical packeges' based on TT&F.

which defenetly wouldn't be a step forward for me. just the opposite (without wanting to critisize wwfan's work).

There are too many notches on the sliders and it's too unclear what they mean. They make the game unecessarily difficult, and nobody (except maybe the games writers, but I'm not even certain of that) knows what they really mean.

Example: I want to set my defensive line on the edge of my penalty area. How many notches on the defensive line slider is that?