Bad physio = slow recovery, good physio = quick recovery?

Just to start it off, from my perspective I have always been of the belief that the only way a good physio differs from a bad physio is in how accurately they can predict a player's recovery time.

However I have been in discussions with friends who believe that a good physio can assist in helping a player recover faster.

With that said, I can find no official documentation that suggest any cause and effect, related to a physios quality, in assisting player recovery. Only that they estimate better,

If someone who actually creates the game can assist with this it would be very helpful.

As far as I know the quality of physio doesn't have any influence on the time out. The thing that effects this is 'Sent Home', 'Send to Specialist' etc.

Better physio's are able to predect the time a player will be out for better.

May be wrong, don't hold me to this.

If someone who actually creates the game can assist with this it would be very helpful.

How about someone who actually plays the game?

Yes, better physios make quicker injury recoveries. Also, I've done a little test before with the amount of physios and have discovered that more better physios will allow a player to recover quicker than if you only had one physio of that quality.

Physiotherapy is not the only important attribute. Motivation is another one I remember.

There was an article on (I think) sortitoutsi about what attributes are important for which staff roles, but don't know where it is.

That's what I have grown up playing this game believing too. That's why some kind of official clarification would be really helpful.

By that I mean actual game mechanics. As in how a player with a high finishing ability is better at putting the ball in the net, are any physio attributes, if higher, do they enable the physio to help a player recover faster.

How about someone who actually plays the game?

Yes, better physios make quicker injury recoveries. Also, I've done a little test before with the amount of physios and have discovered that more better physios will allow a player to recover quicker than if you only had one physio of that quality.

Physiotherapy is not the only important attribute. Motivation is another one I remember.

There was an article on (I think) sortitoutsi about what attributes are important for which staff roles, but don't know where it is.

The problem Ozzy is that a lot of this is just hearsay. I really need some concrete proof, cause and effect. Something that says having attribute x means in the game engine outcome y occurs.

The problem Ozzy is that a lot of this is just hearsay. I really need some concrete proof, cause and effect. Something that says having attribute x means in the game engine outcome y occurs.

I just gave you what you wanted. Take it or leave it.

]I just gave you what you wanted. Take it or leave it.

I'm leaving it. There's nothing to support your argument. There is evidence that having a higher physiotherapy rating equates to better accuracy at predicting rehabilitation times, nothing concrete that suggests they assist with anything else on an official level.

I'm leaving it. There's nothing to support your argument. There is evidence that having a higher physiotherapy rating equates to better accuracy at predicting rehabilitation times, nothing concrete that suggests they assist with anything else on an official level.

You won't get anywhere with that attitude, Ozzy tried to help you and you basically said his view isn't important because it's not either official or what you think.

read that this si forums really are negative and nasty, u make a thread on a forum then get shitty when what ya ask is answerd, i agree that have always thought that affected the time scale we were informed about it, but id imagen its quite simple, a better physio can set better routines to help a player get fitter quicker.smile people stop being so anti social

You won't get anywhere with that attitude, Ozzy tried to help you and you basically said his view isn't important because it's not either official or what you think.

I'm sorry it comes across that way, but with this issue there's too much conjecture and not enough fact. That's why I've posted here in the hope someone from SI will give me an answer.

read that this si forums really are negative and nasty, u make a thread on a forum then get shitty when what ya ask is answerd, i agree that have always thought that affected the time scale we were informed about it, but id imagen its quite simple, a better physio can set better routines to help a player get fitter quicker.smile people stop being so anti social

I haven't got shitty. I gave a reasonable answer as to why I was not accepting his answer. Being shitty is insulting people, I laid out my point and gave support to it.

logic would suggest that a good physio would be both more accurate at predicting how long a player will be injured for and also more effective at helping that player each that target. so if you have a time frame of say 7-9 months for an ACL injury then a good physio should really be able to get them back for 7 months. I would also think that motivating, mental and fitness stats would also be important. I don't know this as fact, but i am a physio and that's what seems logical!. I've just had a look at my physio's and they're rubbish! i'd better go and get some new ones.

I think that's the thing. I agree they should have some effect on a physio's ability, it's just that I can't find any evidence to suggest they do.

I'm sorry it comes across that way, but with this issue there's too much conjecture and not enough fact. That's why I've posted here in the hope someone from SI will give me an answer.

Si have far more important patch and FM10-related things to do than answer every single little question. You'll just have to make do with us plebians who got our info from both the game itself and perhaps an SI member once upon a time.

I think that's the thing. I agree they should have some effect on a physio's ability, it's just that I can't find any evidence to suggest they do.

Apart from people who play the game saying they notice that it does?

I think Fantastic has a point about SI and the info they give on the game. The handbook you get when you buy the DVD is not very helpful and just seems to be a re hash of handbooks given with previous versions and not updated for 09 and the same goes with the in game hints, some are out of date with the 09 version of the game. It maybe an idea that SI brought out an official strategy guide that you could buy like some other games do.

The problem Ozzy is that a lot of this is just hearsay...

...I've done a little test before with the amount of physios and have discovered that more better physios will allow a player to recover quicker than if you only had one physio of that quality...

Fantastic, you appear to not have read Ozzy's response. He did indeed give you empirical evidence resulting from tests he had done. If you choose to ignore his efforts to better the community, that's your problem.

If you want insight into the actual game, I would be truely shocked if anyone from SI would give anything more than rough guidlines into the inner workings of the game. It is, after all, their livelyhood. If they went around telling anyone who wanted to know anything about how their product was constructed, it wouldn't be long before it would be copied.

What you're asking for is a trade secret. If you really want to know, conduct some industrial espionage and pray you don't get caught...

id like more transparency from SI on stuff life this

same with the 7 star coaching issue

Just to start it off, from my perspective I have always been of the belief that the only way a good physio differs from a bad physio is in how accurately they can predict a player's recovery time.

However I have been in discussions with friends who believe that a good physio can assist in helping a player recover faster.

With that said, I can find no official documentation that suggest any cause and effect, related to a physios quality, in assisting player recovery. Only that they estimate better,

If someone who actually creates the game can assist with this it would be very helpful.

as far as i know a better physio doesnt make the player recover quicker. but the better he is he will be more accurate in estimating the time a player will be out of action for.

You won't get anywhere with that attitude, Ozzy tried to help you and you basically said his view isn't important because it's not either official or what you think.

Fantastic, you appear to not have read Ozzy's response. He did indeed give you empirical evidence resulting from tests he had done. If you choose to ignore his efforts to better the community, that's your problem.

If you want insight into the actual game, I would be truely shocked if anyone from SI would give anything more than rough guidlines into the inner workings of the game. It is, after all, their livelyhood. If they went around telling anyone who wanted to know anything about how their product was constructed, it wouldn't be long before it would be copied.

What you're asking for is a trade secret. If you really want to know, conduct some industrial espionage and pray you don't get caught...

To be fair, what I'm asking for isn't something as cynical as asking for weaknesses in the match engine. What I want to know is if physios affect rehabilitation times, not just predict the period to a degree of accuracy.

I can understand you point that Ozzy has provided evidence, but I'm not asking for personal results. I'm asking for a black or white definition of how a physio effects the game, related to their ability. I want cause and effect. SI are the only people who can give me that answer.

Ozzy is right.

i have seen no difference in injury times with a physio at oxford with 10 physiotherapy or mine at QPR with 20.

I have Physio with skill 19. My player had damaged foot in game options were a) give injektion and he will be out ~2 months b) Leave to physio and out around month. Usually last season in this case i had longer recovery about 5-6 weeks when i had physio skill 15.

Not sure what this prove but i always hire the most best staff available, because i want to live in illusion that perfect world is there and the truth is out there. Never trust no one.

well maybe you're not meant to know definitively, it's like SSGTroyer said, it'd be revealing too much. You're meant to learn it out by experimenting, otherwise playing the game would just be doing equations.

I can understand you point that Ozzy has provided evidence, but I'm not asking for personal results. I'm asking for a black or white definition of how a physio effects the game, related to their ability. I want cause and effect.

Did I not give you that?

i have seen no difference in injury times with a physio at oxford with 10 physiotherapy or mine at QPR with 20.

How would the two physios be dealing with the same palyer at the same time?

And even if they were, Physiotherapy is not the only important attribute.

The only think I noticed with better physios is that they give a more accurate time frame for the players recovering from injury. There was no quick/slower recovery linked to quality of physios as far as what I had noticed.

I found that when I had three physio, around the 17 mark players were out longer compared to when I had better ones of 20.

for most of the injury types the players are treated by the physios so I think that it is fair to assume that a better physio with 20 in physiotherapy would do a better job when treating an injured player then a physio with 10, now the difference cannot be that big because a pulled hamstring is a pulled hamstring but still, a better physio will do a better job and the player will get fit faster. One other thing that differs good from bad physios is that you all in all get less injuries so they don’t need to intervene at all.

All I noticed is a more accurate report for the length of time they'll be out for.

I still wonders if the CA of the staff is more important than the stats? A physio with CA 130 and Physiotherapy 15 is he better than one with CA 110 and physio 17? The same question do I ask myself about coaches.

well maybe you're not meant to know definitively, it's like SSGTroyer said, it'd be revealing too much. You're meant to learn it out by experimenting, otherwise playing the game would just be doing equations.

i wouldnt mind that if what i was experimenting with was reflective of real life, but it just isnt

so id rather just know

if at a top club bring in physios nanni and lasmar. I've noticed with these two on board players come back extremely quickly, players with 2month injuries are soon playing again in two to three weeks.

Still nothing in terms of an SI response.

I'm working on trying to develop an experiment that is unbiased, e.g. when a player is injured save the game and change physio stats to all 1s. Then when the player recovers reload the game and do it only with all attributes to all 20s. Repeat a couple of times and I should have some solid results.

I spotted this in the change list for 9.0.3 patch.

"Improved physio assessment of a player's likely return date, dependant upon physio's ability."

So that tells us for certain that their ability has an influence on the assessment of the injury duration. Just need to know if they can impact the injury duration directly (Speed up the healing process)

Ozzy thanks for the info about the number of physios . . . when I started at Bolton I had 5 physios but the board only thought 2 were necessary. I've been renewing all of their contracts (even if they are crap) because I won't be able to hire that many again.

Ozzy thanks for the info about the number of physios . . . when I started at Bolton I had 5 physios but the board only thought 2 were necessary. I've been renewing all of their contracts (even if they are crap) because I won't be able to hire that many again.

Just make sure you don't have 4 good physios and 1 inferior physio cos he'll bring the team down.

Jesus Christ, boys...why consistently argue amongst yourselves when you can actually test the damn thing and find out? Bloody testosterone.

The editor tells you how long injuries last, and you can see when players were injured, what their injury was and what stats club physios have in the game. Pick an injury from the editor's list - some examples for you: Stubbed toe (5-10 days), damaged foot (10-25 days), calf strain (15-25 days)...start a game unemployed and go on holiday for half a season. Go through the injury tables for your loaded leagues and find players from lots of teams at lots of levels who have the same injury. You've now got a collection of guinea-pigs. I'll leave the rest up to you to work out, but it's not hard. Gather the data and make of it what you will. It's a test that, even done absolutely thoroughly, shouldn't take more than an hour or two to complete.

Jesus Christ, boys...why consistently argue amongst yourselves when you can actually test the damn thing and find out? Bloody testosterone.

The editor tells you how long injuries last, and you can see when players were injured, what their injury was and what stats club physios have in the game. Pick an injury from the editor's list - some examples for you: Stubbed toe (5-10 days), damaged foot (10-25 days), calf strain (15-25 days)...start a game unemployed and go on holiday for half a season. Go through the injury tables for your loaded leagues and find players from lots of teams at lots of levels who have the same injury. You've now got a collection of guinea-pigs. I'll leave the rest up to you to work out, but it's not hard. Gather the data and make of it what you will. It's a test that, even done absolutely thoroughly, shouldn't take more than an hour or two to complete.

That would work - but honestly should it be necessary?

How long have physios been in FM? Why is the only information that SI have ever given, as far as I'm aware, is that they affect the accuracy of predictions of recovery time?

It really shouldn't be necessary for somebody starting out to play this game to come to a website and search around for an answer in order to know whether it helps to have more than one physio or if having a better physio helps recovery. It's the sort of basic information that should be in the manual.

It would take no more than a sentence or two in the manual to sort it all out. So why not do that SI?

That would work - but honestly should it be necessary?

How long have physios been in FM? Why is the only information that SI have ever given, as far as I'm aware, is that they affect the accuracy of predictions of recovery time?

It really shouldn't be necessary for somebody starting out to play this game to come to a website and search around for an answer in order to know whether it helps to have more than one physio or if having a better physio helps recovery. It's the sort of basic information that should be in the manual.

It would take no more than a sentence or two in the manual to sort it all out. So why not do that SI?

It would only take a yes or no in this thread from one of the creators to sort the issue out, god knows why that's so hard to obtain. It's not as though it should be a big secret, but it's weird there's such confusion.

It would only take a yes or no in this thread from one of the creators to sort the issue out, god knows why that's so hard to obtain. It's not as though it should be a big secret, but it's weird there's such confusion.

I think you'll find that SI have greater concerns than answering every petty question asked on the forum, although I'm sure you'd much rather have them put FM10 on hold for a while so all these things are answered, hmm? I'm a mod on another site, and questions are quite often asked about various aspects of the site's design. There are instances where the only one who actually knows the answers for sure is the admin who did the design, but it's the mods or occasionally (for more frequently asked questions) other users, who ALWAYS respond to those questions. We didn't write out the code, but we've still been provided with enough information to find out the answers for ourselves and (shock, horror) we've gone and found out the answers for ourselves. What people here find so difficult about that, I don't know, but so many people here are like yourself and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

I think you'll find that SI have greater concerns than answering every petty question asked on the forum, although I'm sure you'd much rather have them put FM10 on hold for a while so all these things are answered, hmm? I'm a mod on another site, and questions are quite often asked about various aspects of the site's design. There are instances where the only one who actually knows the answers for sure is the admin who did the design, but it's the mods or occasionally (for more frequently asked questions) other users, who ALWAYS respond to those questions. We didn't write out the code, but we've still been provided with enough information to find out the answers for ourselves and (shock, horror) we've gone and found out the answers for ourselves. What people here find so difficult about that, I don't know, but so many people here are like yourself and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

theres was a seven page thread on the forum recently, in it people debated, argued and grappled with the training system in FM and the effectiveness of coachs

many of the posts in the thread were people asking for a definitive response on the matter from SI

none was given...after seven pages

i think people have a problem with a deliberate withholding of information that should just be readily available, especially when it would be so easy to do so

meh

I think you'll find that SI have greater concerns than answering every petty question asked on the forum, although I'm sure you'd much rather have them put FM10 on hold for a while so all these things are answered, hmm? I'm a mod on another site, and questions are quite often asked about various aspects of the site's design. There are instances where the only one who actually knows the answers for sure is the admin who did the design, but it's the mods or occasionally (for more frequently asked questions) other users, who ALWAYS respond to those questions. We didn't write out the code, but we've still been provided with enough information to find out the answers for ourselves and (shock, horror) we've gone and found out the answers for ourselves. What people here find so difficult about that, I don't know, but so many people here are like yourself and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

Yes I would rather they put FM10 on hold and answer our decent q's and problems and when I pay money for something yes I do expect it on a silver platter.

I have greater concerns with my job, but when I do my job I finish it and don't put up half of it and then go back and put up another bit but bugger up a part of what I did before. I want to play this game for fun/relaxation purposes and no I don't want easy, I play chess, do crosswords and soduku for fun too, because i like to excercise my brain. But I am not a computer programmer, I want to be able to just play the game, have the relevant information to play this game and not have to spend hours/days faffing around on a forum or editor looking for answers or posting threads about problems. I have played this game since CM series and up until 09 never ever came on the forums and didn't even know about patches till 07. It seems to me that SI need to take a leaf out of Eidos's book and not release the game till it works and write a decent manual. And yeh I know that you have to patch other games/software and about incompatibility with certain hardware but software companies are now taking the mickey and not just SI (I will admit that S.I. do try to help to a point when there is a problem) As far as I'm concerned software companies are starting to become the computer worlds equivalent of investment bankers.

Sorry I went slightly off topic but the post I quoted made me angry

ok rant over gonna try to see if i can cure my problem with patch 9.3

I think you'll find that SI have greater concerns than answering every petty question asked on the forum, although I'm sure you'd much rather have them put FM10 on hold for a while so all these things are answered, hmm? I'm a mod on another site, and questions are quite often asked about various aspects of the site's design. There are instances where the only one who actually knows the answers for sure is the admin who did the design, but it's the mods or occasionally (for more frequently asked questions) other users, who ALWAYS respond to those questions. We didn't write out the code, but we've still been provided with enough information to find out the answers for ourselves and (shock, horror) we've gone and found out the answers for ourselves. What people here find so difficult about that, I don't know, but so many people here are like yourself and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

Will you please explain why on earth such a straightforward (but basic) matter such as this should have to be subject to experiment or investigation?

This is a game . People pay money for it and most of them don't come faffing about websites like this. They want to buy the game, go home, read the manual a bit and start playing it.

It's not a matter of 'having everything handed to them on a silver platter' at all. Unless somebody comes searching around a site like this they won't have a clue about a really simple part of the game. Putting a straightforward short paragraph in the manual wouldn't do anything to make the actual gameplay easier, or dumb the thing down in any way. It would simply make sure that the customer, who has paid for this product, had enough information to make a sensible decision for his/her club.

Not everybody is an FM nerd. Ordinary people who buy this game should not need to mess around like this.

To stop everybody having to waste time, SI should let people know what the position is now and make sure they put the info in the next manual clearly.

If SI are uncooperative over simple things like this, they should not be surprised if people start looking for other games to buy instead, like CM for example, rather than FM10!

I think you'll find that SI have greater concerns than answering every petty question asked on the forum, although I'm sure you'd much rather have them put FM10 on hold for a while so all these things are answered, hmm? I'm a mod on another site, and questions are quite often asked about various aspects of the site's design. There are instances where the only one who actually knows the answers for sure is the admin who did the design, but it's the mods or occasionally (for more frequently asked questions) other users, who ALWAYS respond to those questions. We didn't write out the code, but we've still been provided with enough information to find out the answers for ourselves and (shock, horror) we've gone and found out the answers for ourselves. What people here find so difficult about that, I don't know, but so many people here are like yourself and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

Silver platter? I'm not asking for the key to the match engine or any secret hints as to how to achieve an extremely effective training program (if you want the latter I've written a detailed guide of how to do so here http://loswonderkids.com/community/index.php?showtopic=1199&st=0&start=0 ) I've been playing this game for a very long time and always assumed physios only assist with recovery estimation.

You have no idea, people who claim that physios do assist recovery speed can provide no empirical evidence to support their argument other than they've "seen" it happening. I'd say it's pretty logical to ask the creators for some help on the issue.

You have no idea, people who claim that physios do assist recovery speed can provide no empirical evidence to support their argument other than they've "seen" it happening. I'd say it's pretty logical to ask the creators for some help on the issue.

People keep on saying they know things about this game when they don't, really. They only think them!

I just want to know if 1) having a good physio means that my players will get better quickly and 2) if having more than one physio helps at all (so that I don't waste money paying a salary to a totally unnecessary extra one), as I do lower league management and so my club doesn't have any spare cash.

Is that really too much to ask?

"...If possible, have at least three Physios with high ratings for this attribute to ensure your players receive high-quality treatment to both prevent and rehabilitate injuries."

It is right there in the manual.

That said, Im unsure how much it helps, never tested it and tbh never noticed a change when having many physios. Only change i've ever noticed is better estimates.

"...If possible, have at least three Physios with high ratings for this attribute to ensure your players receive high-quality treatment to both prevent and rehabilitate injuries."

It is right there in the manual.

That said, Im unsure how much it helps, never tested it and tbh never noticed a change when having many physios. Only change i've ever noticed is better estimates.

It's all rather vague though.

Are (say) 3 physios with physiotherapy 10 better than 2 physios with physiotherapy 15 for example or even than 1 with 20? And 'at least three' isn't very helpful -does that mean that 4 are actually better than 3 or not?

I would read what they say there as suggesting that you get fewer injuries the more physios you have. But it's all very unclear.

I haven't got the code-base in front of me but as far as I can recall (and I'll check on Monday):

- The ability of a physio affects the rate at which a player recovers if he is being treated by the club.

- The ability of a physio affects his/her estimation of a player's time out. The better the physio, the more accurate their assessment.

- If you have more than one physio, your best physio is considered your 'head physio' and this physio will be used in the assessing of the players.

It's also disappointing to see people having a go at other posters who are trying to help answer the question. One main aspect of forums is that people have the ability to help each other so please have the decency to respect that. If you don't know the answer yourself, you are not in a strong position to criticise their responses. Not every question is straightforward and often can't be answered, even by an SI coder, without a look at the code which obviously takes a little time - especially if it doesn't fall within a module they've worked on.

That's very helpful about the recovery time - thanks very much. I'm still not quite clear about the numbers of physios though.

Hold on a mo nick, I and I think the others who had a go at someone, weren't having a go at them for being helpful but for being condescending and speaking for SI, when all they are is a normal poster. Personally speaking I think the customer support from SI is normally very good on this forum but I think your company needs to re think the timing of release of games/testing and the manual given with the game (I am talking about dvd box release, don't know about download). I personally think the OP had a point about info from SI as most of the people posting were guessing. Maybe if this is impractical from a cost perspective you could publish an official manual/game advisor or something that can be bought as an extra like you can with other games. I am totally frustrated that with this version of FM i am constantly having to come onto this forum for help