Missed Interception - Tactical Flaw or Individual Player Error?

I was wondering if there was a definitive answer, or is it just subjective?

Posted this Topic in the Tactics and Training Forum some time ago, but was hoping for a more general opinion.

It would be great if someone who actually knew the answer could reply?

How do you mean? Players missing interceptions?

How do you mean? Players missing interceptions?

Errrrr, yes

Player error mainly, unless your tactics have placed him somewhere so that the player couldnt make the interception?

P.S is this going to be another thread like your other one? Because if it is i cant wait!

Player error mainly, unless your tactics have placed him somewhere so that the player couldnt make the interception?

P.S is this going to be another thread like your other one? Because if it is i cant wait!

I hope i'm going somewhere with this yes, personally i think the answer is that its a definite player error, there is even an ingame tip that suggests this is down to a players concentration.

A definitive answer from someone in the know would be greatly appreciated.

I hope i'm going somewhere with this yes, personally i think the answer is that its a definite player error, there is even an ingame tip that suggests this is down to a players concentration.

A definitive answer from someone in the know would be greatly appreciated.

Well AFAIK its to do with their concentration level

Well AFAIK its to do with their concentration level

Alright stevie mate, well lets "suggest" that this was true, just between me and you and then consider this...

If my side has gelled and developed a "strong understanding" and my back four have a concentration stat of at least 15(15-18) and all have very strong important defensive stats like anticipation and positioning of 15+ how could it be then that at least 80% of the goals i have conceded so far in the EPL are from individual player error, largely missed interceptions?

Also take into consideration that player morale has remained high(largely due to good form in Europe and Domestic Cup competitions) usually either "very good" - "superb"

Remember to bear in mind that we are agreeing to accept the issue as individual player error here.

Surely this more than suggests(not 100% proof of course) that the way matches are calculated with the current AI and ME, is very much a hit and miss process that all too often does not appear to take actual player skills and statistics into consideration, at least not from a Human Managers perspective anyway?

What do you think?

Round 2 - Ding Ding!

I think there are way too many errors in games anyway, whenever you finish a game and go to the news screen to read the analasis of the match it always has at least two "An error from X allowed X to score a powerful effort" or something like that.

This is the case with just commentary view, i Imagine there are more with the 3d view.

With most errors i have seen the defender has attempted a pass which has gone astray to an opposing attacker, who no doubt will finish it off.

I think this does need looking at.

I dont usually upload PKM's, this is because i've noticed that most people tend to go into complete "Fanboy" mode having watched the game, posting things like "yeah, it obviously your tactics" and other rubbish.

I've uploaded this one to show just how my entire season so far can be summed up in how we have conceded so many ridiculous goals out of practically nothing.

Let me just mention that i expect to be bombarded with posts about how we have conceded two late goals, but late goals have not been the issue, it happens, but it has not been a feature of the season, this is to do with the fact that 80-90% of the goals we have conceded in the EPL this season are of a similar/identical nature to those in the PKM

http://files.filefront.com/Portsmouth+v+Aston+Villapkm/;13269844;/fileinfo.html

The thing to take into consideration here is the type of goals we are regularly conceding, to the quality of player making the mistakes.

Difficult to answer this questions, it could be a match engine flaw, but it could be player error. There's no way of knowing for sure.

I'm not sure how it can be a tactical flaw? I would imagine no matter what you'd tell a player to do on the pitch, it wouldn't affect wether he misses intercepting a pass or not. Maybe closing down, but then it's still stupid.

stevie_j10 said I think there are way too many errors in games anyway

I think you're right, there.

I know I manage at low level (currently Italy Serie C2) but it seems to me that far too many goals result from BAD play rather than GOOD, things like elementary missed interceptions or stupid behaviour like a DC charging out at breakneck speed to tackle an opposing midfielder and leaving a gap, or players passing straight to the opposition or standing still and letting themselves be tackled in their own penalty areas.....

It's rather like the situation after the half time talks where in some magical fashion the AI manager seems to be able to hypnotise my players into going out there with their boots on the wrong feet .

The ME doesn't really seem to put together that many nice moves. It would be good if there were more of them - after all, even lower league players aren't completely terrible at football.

I think there are way too many errors in games anyway

I think you're right, there.

I know I manage at low level (currently Italy Serie C2) but it seems to me that far too many goals result from BAD play rather than GOOD, things like elementary missed interceptions or stupid behaviour like a DC charging out at breakneck speed to tackle an opposing midfielder and leaving a gap, or players passing straight to the opposition or standing still and letting themselves be tackled in their own penalty areas.....

It's rather like the situation after the half time talks where in some magical fashion the AI manager seems to be able to hypnotise my players into going out there with their boots on the wrong feet .

The ME doesn't really seem to put together that many nice moves. It would be good if there were more of them - after all, even lower league players aren't completely terrible at football.

What makes it worse, which is what i'm trying to get across here, is that its the Human Manager that suffers the most when its Human v's AI.

My defenders(who are ALL wanted by the Worlds best teams) make catastrophic individual error after error, despite their stats and all round ability suggesting the contrary, whilst i batter most teams defences to bits, yet even the weakest teams with the poorest players, remain practically error free, whether i win the game comfortably or not?

Players constantly miss interceptions and I'm convinced it's a match engine flaw. Sometimes they go towards the ball and just completely fail to even make contact with it, other times they simply stand and watch a ball go past them or wait for an opposition player to challenge them before they bother to react.

To me, it seems as if the match engine knows the ball is supposed to reach a certain players possession, but it can't seem to get it to him without sending it close to a player on the other team who appears to fail to control it.

IMO the problem is created by the ME's inability to visualize realistic goal-scoring opportunities. I don't think the ME has the ability to show us many ways of scoring a goal, so it resorts in showing a missed interception because it is unable to show great passes that split your defenders, a tactical error, a lapse of concentration or a moment of genius from a specific player, a lucky bounce, etc. So it resorts in the same type of goal over and over, and that's where all the problems start, because if I can't see what the specific reason is to me conceding a goal, then how am I supposed to fix it? Guess? Ask my AssMan for useless advice? Become a tester? I don't know...

Don't get me wrong - I love this game and I spend many hours getting my 11 dots to get the smaller dot in the square (my laptop can't deal with 3D). This is meant as constructive criticism to help improve the game.

Missed Interception - Tactical Flaw or Individual Player Error?

It's an individual player error for sure. In my view that is, I cannot be a tactical flaw can it.

It won't matter if they're an amazing player or not the best player in the squad. It can come down to just plain bad luck, can't it?

There can be some factords to consider if it aint bad luck. They can feel stressed as of your team talks and media comments, the player that scored was too good on the day, the pass was awsome, etc etc.

I see this happen, own goals. Missed interceptions, it happens. You can look at the stats to see if its poor or low concentration stats that are the issue. They could of just had a bad day at the office. It can happen in real life some times life just throws you a curve ball.

It's an individual player error for sure. In my view that is, I cannot be a tactical flaw can it.

If that were the case, it is contradictory to the TT & F document...

It says to look through section 10 - 22 if your team produces a high percentage of player mistakes. So I did.

If that were the case, it is contradictory to the TT & F document...

It says to look through section 10 - 22 if your team produces a high percentage of player mistakes. So I did.

I have never read the document myself.

However, if it is a one off. Or a very irregular one off I can live with it. If its nigh on every game. Then its a tactical flaw then isn't it.

As either they are realy bad player and make too many costly errors, or they are ace, but can't play the way you want to play them so keeping making mistakes. Such as a player playing out of position. I can see there are flip sides to the coin the game sometimes contradicts itself. Or the match engine doesn't or can't show what really happened.

Just my view is, " <naughty word here> Happens "

I find it very hard to believe that players can be rendered incapable of intercepting a pass, several times a game, because of a "tactical flaw". A tactical flaw would stop them being in the right place to make interceptions. But it wouldn't stop them from being able to make them if they were in the right place.

I agree with the missed interceptions affecting human managers at a much higher rate than AI players. I can't say why this happens, only that it does, amongst various other statistical anomalies and odd occurences, lead down the road to various conspiracy theories regarding the ME.

I find it very hard to believe that players can be rendered incapable of intercepting a pass, several times a game, because of a "tactical flaw". A tactical flaw would stop them being in the right place to make interceptions. But it wouldn't stop them from being able to make them if they were in the right place.

Yes, what would that look like tactically? Do you have your slider for missed interceptions turned up to often?

Yeah, I can't quite get my head around it. I mean, I can accept that I might take a tactical approach that means my players aren't getting in place to make interceptions. But what I can't accept is that my players, because of my tactical approach, see a ball coming near them but can't work out how to trap it or hoof it clear. Tactics shouldn't affect a player's ability to do what comes naturally such as trying to prevent the opposition from having possession when he can do something about it.

The very nature of it suggests individual error, mistiming a jump or failing to get a touch etc, even the in-game tip suggests that this is usually linked to a players concentration, but i have not found that to be the case in any of my games, i always make sure my defenders especially, have a high concentration stat, yet almost every goal i concede is usually from some kind of related error.

I'm sure there are others who would disagree, just like there are some that link bad striker finishing to tactical tempo???

So it has to be player error then :/ It has to be.

I've been thinking back and forth on this and waying this up, it's clearly a player error.

As each formation has a week point, tactical weaknesses and strenghts, and so forther. But; a player missing an interception, making a hash from some 'Given circumstance' than that's the player playing badly for a full game or just one mistake, or has misjudged the situation/run of play/the ball flight, they have just messed up.

It really can't be a tactical hiccup then can it?

I was thinking perhaps that the game is too quick to blame a defender. Yes sometimes players make mistakes which lead to goals but often it is just good play, I don't think the ratio is quite right.

The game seems to judge at least 50% of goals as complete clangers by the defender, but IRL people will say, well maybe the defender could have done a little better but it was mostly good play.

So it has to be player error then :/ It has to be.

Nope! It's likely to be a match engine/representation error, but it's possible it was a player error

It's all down to the inadequacy of the ME, I'm sure. The overwhelming majority of goals seem to come from elementary errors of this sort, or the crude long boot behind the defenders or long shots (often by some AI midfielder with a rating of 2 in that department). The number of good goals from decent passing movements seems to be very limited.

Of course the really infuriating thing, as pandemonium says, is that this makes it very difficult to change tactics in match to turn things round. You seem to be playing fine and then your DC has a sudden fit of total insanity, so what do you do to stop the rot???

Good concentration, anticipation and condition go a long way towards not missing intercerptions. Also, it helps if the player plays with confidence but not overconfidence (check the motivation screen). If your player does miss many in some random match, you can either try to reduce his mentality or sub him.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Condition.

played 1 match yestrday after more than a month to check out how it would feel after long pause. my team won 1-0 but it was like watching handball match not football. 30 shots both teams combined, almost every attack threre was shot on goal, especially in the first half. there were at least 5-7 1 on 1 situations, with some 5 other exellant chances to score imo. in all fairness that match should have ended with at least 5 goals being scored (but probably even more).

probably all of those 1 on 1's were created after defender making an error. he moves forward like he tring to cut out the pass than suddenly like he realises he can't do it, stops for a second or two and than starts chasing player with ball, unsuccesfully of course. just horrible when you see that more than once in a match and it happens all the time. even if it's tactics related it should't be happening in top football.

Good concentration, anticipation and condition go a long way towards not missing intercerptions. Also, it helps if the player plays with confidence but not overconfidence (check the motivation screen). If your player does miss many in some random match, you can either try to reduce his mentality or sub him.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Condition.

I simply don't think it's true that the player's stats have a significant effect on his propensity to miss interceptions. Hammer1000's defenders are world class and yet they do this regularly, just like my lower league defenders. It's a thoroughly inadequate match engine that causes this to happen; because it's unable to generate goals through good play decently, it does it through bad.

The more I watch the ME in action, the worse I think it is! It should be a real priority for something very much better to be provided for the next version.

You seem to be playing fine and then your DC has a sudden fit of total insanity

I particularly enjoy the attempts to catch strikers offside! No matter how good the defender is, they get caught out every match, we aren't always punished for the mistakes, but they defiantely happen far too often.

I also agree with you're post above this.

I particularly enjoy the attempts to catch strikers offside! No matter how good the defender is, they get caught out every match, we aren't always punished for the mistakes, but they defiantely happen far too often.

Very true! I wouldn't mind if I had them set to play the offside, but I don't do that.

I just played a game where my defence was set extremely deep. The players' individual mentality was set appropriately according to TT & F ideas (Rule of 1) and yet constantly the defence line came up too far so that simple balls over the top caught them out.

It's as though the ME second guesses you all the time. Your players just don't follow instructions. And my defenders are on very low creative freedom as well.

What more can one do? You set your defence line very deep, you have defenders' mentality set suitably according to TT & F but this just isn't reflected in the play. Presumably it was all because of the AI manager's inspirational half time talk....

I now tell my two center backs to stay back at all times, i got sick of them joining the attack even though they have p*** poor attacking stats. CB's trying to get on the end of a through ball.. whats with that? All I needed was a counter attack and i was screwed. They stay back now but still make pathetic errors.

I was 2-0 at half time against Birmingham in the championship with Rushden. Now this is an amazing scoreline considering Birmingham are top and i was 7th at the time a good 20 points away from them. I tell my team not to get complacent in the team talk, next thing I know my two CB's just decide to chase after the same ball, one passes to where the other player was but obviously he's not there. Striker gets on the end and lobs my keeper who has also run out to try and clear the free ball. 2-1 before we've reached 46mins. (Nice to see they paid attention in my team talk i thought....)

10 mins later my keeper boots the ball out and it somehow gets back to him faster than he managed to kick it out. The ball lands to feet and he starts to walk it out into the pitch a bit. Suddenly two forwards charge him, he flusters and boots the ball into one, he passes it to the other striker and he scores... 2-2 Wonderful! Appears my entire defense were in the toilet while i was doing my talk....

I change my tactics and switch the defenders, things look up but we're greatly outclassed on the pitch in all areas and don't look like we're going to replay the stunning form of the first half. 5 minutes from time, through ball to the striker, he shoots and it comes off the crossbar, bounces off my keeper and goes into the net. I was livid! The ball wasn't even a fast one, was like a slow placed shot which he should have been able to catch.

I'm not angry that I lost, i was prepared for that to begin with and I knew it would be hard after half time cause when you're winning against a good team at half time it's usually when they come firing out the blocks at you. But it was the manner in which the goals were conceeded... stupid player errors. It happens in almost every game for me, sometimes i'm punished and others im not. But when I look back on my goals, 9 times out of 10 the goals are from similar player errors whereas a well made passing move with a sweet finish will always go right at the keeper or hit the woodwork...

It's your teamtalks

I use 'Dont Be Complacent' all the time and still manage to keep the lead. It usually makes the players focus somewhat. Only use it when winning against better teams. With a 50% win record over the top 4 teams in the championship this season it seems to work for a team who were supposed to be relegated this season (on paper lol)

I use 'Dont Be Complacent' all the time and still manage to keep the lead. It usually makes the players focus somewhat. Only use it when winning against better teams. With a 50% win record over the top 4 teams in the championship this season it seems to work for a team who were supposed to be relegated this season (on paper lol)

No matter what happens, somebody will always come onto a thread and blame either your team talks or your tactics. It's always YOUR fault, never a fault with the ME!

Will be down at the REAL Rushden and Diamonds tomorrow, now that Gary Hill has gone

I guess, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. Its a little too easy to blame it on team talks and tactics all the time though. My tactics are spot on imo, i've managed to get Rushden up to the championship within 4 seasons by purchasing free players and getting some smashing loan deals. Mix that with a bit of luck in one or two play off finals and you've got yourself a miracle on grass! Sometimes i'll try something new and it'l fall on its ass but for some reason i have more luck playing with an AMC than any other formation, regardless of the fact that AMC's are notoriously bad in the game in their ratings lol.

The thing is, league 1 and 2 are very close in the quality of players, the jump to the championship is shockingly high which tactics alone can't best... its nice to have a challenge for once lol, was hopeing i'd have longer to prepare my team for the premiership but the way things are looking i might make the play offs. Not bad for a team made up of free players and loans from Arsenals youth team lol. Parent clubs ftw! But still, regardless of player quality the errors they make happen for every player in my defense. And probably the rest of the team, just you're not punished as much for a missed pass from a striker. All the way from the BSP i've had these errors being made which i get spanked for. Its a shame these will happen in the prem too... tired of the media saying my matches are always full of errors lol!!!

This is what i've been saying about the ME all along and why the game is no fun anymore.

How are we supposed to accept that our "strongly gelled side" of "World Class" players with "superb" morale who are not "cocky" and "over confident" before a game, keep making schoolboy errors, whilst poor players in weak squads lacking morale and confidence throughout, keep managing to go 90 minutes against us with nary a mistake?

The ME is a complete mess and an absolute nightmare, games are practically impossible to watch, such is the utter lack of realism, yet it should be the most important part of the whole bloomin thing.

If SI are going to insist on trying to rework a tired and incapable ME, then they should at least put the required effort in to make it at least appear more believable.

The "levelling" effect is as blatant as losing a game 5-0 when your opponents have not had a single shot at goal, i'm amazed ANYONE can still bear to watch their matches?

Its a shame, but can you really blame SI? there is little or no competition from other games in this genre and FM continues to sell in its millions, the only pressure on them comes from us, but there is far too little of it, with people seemingly easily pleased or completely unable to comprehend just what is going on.

I cant even find it in me to have a go at SI anymore about this, the onus is on us and we are not doing enough to make SI do anything about it, so why should they?

How are we supposed to accept that our "strongly gelled side" of "World Class" players with "superb" morale who are not "cocky" and "over confident" before a game, keep making schoolboy errors, whilst poor players in weak squads lacking morale and confidence throughout, keep managing to go 90 minutes against us with nary a mistake?

This is where the arguments get tangled and flawed, and I end up between a rock and a hard place.

I agree that the ME needs serious work and has been producing a number of errors, however there is no way to prove that player error is not just that and has nothing to do with the ME, or vice versa. I'd be equally disappointed with the ME if world class players never made a mistake against inferior opposition, just because they are better, and IMO it's not an adequate example of the ME failings.

How are we supposed to accept that our "strongly gelled side" of "World Class" players with "superb" morale who are not "cocky" and "over confident" before a game, keep making schoolboy errors, whilst poor players in weak squads lacking morale and confidence throughout, keep managing to go 90 minutes against us with nary a mistake?

what do you want, what would the scores be like then?

hammer 80% of people think FM is great and in their wiew what you're talking about is your tactical incompetence or poor team-talk managing or something like that. and those 20% who might even consider that there's something wrong with game don't visit this forum or just don't give a damn about it anymore.

Grrr I don't like percentages that aren't backed up with proof Sorry Mitja, but I complain when others do it, so I felt I had to say something

what about when players who 5-10 yards ahead of the other player running for the ball.but for sum reason stroll to it and leave the other player get there ahead of him leaving a 1on1 with the gk.i think its the most annoying thing ever.no matter if the player strolling has a higher accelaration and pace attribute.just stupid.

what about when players who 5-10 yards ahead of the other player running for the ball.but for sum reason stroll to it and leave the other player get there ahead of him leaving a 1on1 with the gk.i think its the most annoying thing ever.no matter if the player strolling has a higher accelaration and pace attribute.just stupid.

I think that's a representation error, rather than a match engine error. The match engine knows that a certain player is going to get the ball and in order to make that happen the representation makes things happen that don't necessarily ring true or look realistic.

Grrr I don't like percentages that aren't backed up with proof Sorry Mitja, but I complain when others do it, so I felt I had to say something

oh, i made up those percentages, don't bother with that

This is where the arguments get tangled and flawed, and I end up between a rock and a hard place.

I agree that the ME needs serious work and has been producing a number of errors, however there is no way to prove that player error is not just that and has nothing to do with the ME, or vice versa. I'd be equally disappointed with the ME if world class players never made a mistake against inferior opposition, just because they are better, and IMO it's not an adequate example of the ME failings.

I'm not saying that for instance if my World Class DC makes 2 errors in a game then the poorer DC from the opposition should make 4 or 6 or however many.

What i am saying is that a World Class DC should make less mistakes over a season(depending on ability and stats) than a poor DC with poor defensive and concentration stats.

At the moment it is massively off the mark, with basically almost every goal i concede being down to an individual error.

Its clear(to me anyway) via watching the match, that this is a ME problem, the problem is that the ME is too weak to provide a believable match and stats to go with it, instead using some kind of coded leveller, that makes what you see going on on the pitch largely farcical and non realistic.

At the end of the day the game should be more difficult and with a better stronger ME this would be the case and there would be little need for levellers, in FM good sides have it far too easy against weaker sides, even players with little technical ability can just waltz through defences and its almost a given that to get anything out of a game, the weaker side need to depend on their opponents strikers missing a boatload of sitters, whilst they take whats usually their only chance of the game.

Its just nowhere near that black and white in real life, sometimes your Chelsea's, Arsenal's and Man Utd's etc, lose because they have played poorly or because they have been outplayed on the day, not just because they missed a bunch of sitters and the opposition took their only chance.

This is just not reflected in FM.

Hammer - I know it would be a lot of work, but it would be interesting to see your analysis of 10 'test' matches. True 'test' matches though with the factors varying as little as possible.

The individual error thing is very irksome - not least when it seems to assign error to the wrong player.

Hammer - I know it would be a lot of work, but it would be interesting to see your analysis of 10 'test' matches. True 'test' matches though with the factors varying as little as possible.

The individual error thing is very irksome - not least when it seems to assign error to the wrong player.

No problem, tell me what you mean exactly and how to go about it ok?

I am off out for a couple of hours, but will have some time later this afternoon!

I think that's a representation error, rather than a match engine error. The match engine knows that a certain player is going to get the ball and in order to make that happen the representation makes things happen that don't necessarily ring true or look realistic.

Yes, but that doesn't help very much, really.

The fact is that what we see happening on the pitch on matchday is very bad indeed. Inexcusably bad. I think that a lot of people don't WANT to see it. We've even had people claiming that they haven't seen players moving crab-wise and that therefore this must be down to some sort of tactical error on the part of the human player.

Clearly, FM inspires fierce loyalty amongst a highly vocal number of people who will hear very little if anything against it. Criticisms, whether they be of the ME, or team talks or media relationships or the tactical interface run up against the wall of 'I am doing well with (fill in the blank)' and 'it's your tactics/teamtalks'.

There's none so blind as those who won't see.