SI, will you ever reduce the importance of tactics?

This is getting ridiculous. I read lot of threads where people moan that the game is too hard, and I also read a lot threads where people proudly announce that they took crappy united from 3rd division to champions league in 4 seasons, and their regen striker scoring 100 goals per season.

It is time for SI to see what is wrong here and do something about it!

The reason is the importance of tactics in the game. People who manage to find a tactic that exploits the game engine start winning everything, and people who don't want to waste their time trying to figure out tactics and go with default ones, keep losing and start complaining. If only SI would reduce the effect of tactics in the game engine, this problem would be solved, and honestly the game would be more realistic for gos's sake!!!

Assume Sir Alex Ferguson will come to me in real life and tell me to replace him for 1 exhibition game, against a lower league team. What would I do? I would just tell the players to play 4-4-2, or 4-1-3-2, or 4-2-3-1, etc etc.

WHATEVER tactic, I'd tell them to just go out and play, and they would win. I wouldn't have to master a tactic that would work, bc ANY TACTIC would work.

So, if SI wants to make the game more challanging, all they have to do is to make AI teams more aware of the transfer market, young talents, potential abilities, etc. After all, the most important thing is the quality of the players.

In FM09, it is still very easy to get the best players in your squad within 3-4 years into the game, with almost any team, and if at that time you figured out the tactic that exploits the game engine, you start winning everything very easily, and the game is NO MORE FUN.

Likewise, the game is no fun if somebody starts with ManUtd, just doesn't master the tactics, and can't win a game whicever line-up he choses.

I hope SI is reading this. I'd like to know what they are planning to do with the game in the later versions. I'm bored of seing same problems and same moanings year after year...

the people that enjoy this game and play it properly dont look for exploits in the game, they just play it for fun and do it properly

if you buy a first person shooter game, but have absolutely no hand-eye coordination, and end up getting killed EVERY TIME because you cant shoot anyone, would you go on the game forums and complain that due to your inability to play the game properly that the game designers should make it easier? i seriously doubt you would, and even if you did you would probably just get ridiculed

this game isnt easy, and because of that its good. Its good to find it hard to win, otherwise winning wouldnt mean anything. if this game was really easy, if it didnt matter what settings i choose for my players, or what my team-talk was, or my opposition instructions were, and all i had to do was to buy a few good players and then just put them on the pitch, this game would get very boring very quickly. Where is the skill? It isnt hard to look at the stats of some players and make a bid, sometimes you will get the player, sometimes you wont, but that isnt down to skill or man-management whatsoever. So where does the skill lie? in recruiting coaches to give you 5-7star coaching to get the best out of your players on the training ground so their attributes get higher (or just dont get lower), or is it in the press conferences that you give pre and post-game? nope. The quest to find the skill elements of the game continue...Is it...wait i know. The skill in this game is being able to take those players, whatever their attributes, and mould them into a team, to play a certain way to achieve those results that you require.

the skill and toughness in this game is in the matches, its in the tactics and the instructions. without them you would have no game, it would be boredom completely. IF fergie let you control man utd for one game, against whoever, you would have to give them instructions, even if it was against the lowest team in the football league, without proper instructions you wouldnt be a manager at all, you would just be a spectator

so if you want a game where tactics play a smaller role, i suggest you go and buy Football Spectator, its this new game, a joint venture by Sega and Sports Interactive, for the wusses who whinge that real football games are too hard. Buy it now !!!

Could you link me to one of these overachieving, four promotions in four years, threads? I haven't read one for FM09.

When managing Man Utd, have you actually lost a match to a lower league team?

Don't you think it is realistic for a manager with a bottom half of the table standard squad to finish in the higher reaches through tactical excellence alone?

Likewise, isn't it realistic for a tactical muppet to finish lower half of the table with a top half squad?

Erm it took ferguson 7 years to win the prem. he fits a tactic around the players he's got. how can you say tactics arent important? Ronaldo being givena free role is a 'tactic' and is used for the same reason Park isnt given a free role. because it gets the most out of the player. But as you see it, ferguson uses a 442 template and picks his 11 and sends them on their way.

look at chelsea? its the same team as last year. so what your saying is scolari should be equal to grant and grant equal to mourinho and so on. thats just silly. tactics are everything!

by your reasoning any manager in the world could manage a big side. even you. we all know who the best players are dont we.

Tactics have no bearing whatsoever in FM09 in my opinion.

***There is not ONE tactic that someone has succesfully used that has then been reproduced to the same extent by someone else.***

Just check out the challenge threads. Plenty have done ridiculously well, saying how easy it all is but refuse to help others get the same success. Why? I'll give you one guess...

Put bluntly I would take anyone's extreme success with a very big pinch of salt

What an awful assumption to make. Just because you do well doesn't mean you HAVE to help anyone else.

I can beat the game to quite a certain degree, and have been successful with both a big club and LLM, but I'm not going to share all my hints and tips with everyone else.

Reducing the importance of tactics in football is like reducing the importance of water to the human body.

Tactics are the the bodily fluids that keep football matches going, without them there would be 22 players chasing 1 football, just like back in primary school

Tactics are the the bodily fluids that keep football matches going, without them there would be 22 players chasing 1 football, just like back in primary school

Oh, how I miss the days of 22-13 scorelines and arguing about whether the ball went in or if it "hit the post" after going over the pile of coats and schoolbags.

Oh, how I miss the days of 22-13 scorelines and arguing about whether the ball went in or if it "hit the post" after going over the pile of coats and schoolbags.

Those were the days! Putting the smallest kid in class in goal, purely cos of the rule where if he cant reach the ball in the air, its gone over the bar:D

Organising the teams during class, not knowing what offside meant but you would claim for it anyhow:p

Those were definately the days

We didn't even play with goalies! We just had a rule where the person furthest back at the time could handle within the vaguely-defined penalty area. It worked surprisingly well for us.

Those were the days! Putting the smallest kid in class in goal, purely cos of the rule where if he cant reach the ball in the air, its gone over the bar:D

Organising the teams during class, not knowing what offside meant but you would claim for it anyhow:p

Those were definately the days

I miss the days when all goalkeeping difficulties could be solved by shouting SPIDER! thus allowing anybody in the area to handle the ball. Ah good times!

Tactics are and should be very important in both real life and the game.

The actual problem is the complexity of the current tactical interface.

We didn't even play with goalies! We just had a rule where the person furthest back at the time could handle within the vaguely-defined penalty area. It worked surprisingly well for us.

Ah the old "rush goalie" in my school that rule was employed when the short kid was off "sick"

hahahaha i never did any rushing into defense to stop a ball crossing the line!

I was the one taking advantage of the other teams open goal!

Scorelines were ridiculous though:p

Secondary school is where it all comes together into the beautiful game:thup:

We also had a rule where any one could become the teams goalie, as long as they said "change" before they picked the ball up

I used to score about seven goals a game. I'd also make about three or four saves a game. What a strange approach to football.

What an awful assumption to make. Just because you do well doesn't mean you HAVE to help anyone else.

I can beat the game to quite a certain degree, and have been successful with both a big club and LLM, but I'm not going to share all my hints and tips with everyone else.

My opinion mate. You're entitled to your view and me mine.

I used to score about seven goals a game. I'd also make about three or four saves a game. What a strange approach to football.

Simply great days!

SI should blatantly make a school version of the game, with a 3d playground with the football match, the teachers on "patrol", the girls skipping, and other football matches going on!

Then i would like to see people complain about mistakes and blame it on the match engine:p

I used to be the keeper, score the goals, take the throw-ins, corners, free-kicks and ref the game.

I used to be the keeper' date=' score the goals, take the throw-ins, corners, free-kicks and ref the game. [/quote']

You were playing on your own weren't you?

I often chose to be the referee. Oddly enough, they used to let me play at the same time.

You were playing on your own weren't you?

In his mind more like:p

You were playing on your own weren't you?

Yep!

And I lost

Enforce tactics back in the schooldays and we wouldn stick to them, in school, you wanna be the best, you want to score the most, you dont care about being offside or making runs. If you had the choice, you would make a run and pick out the pass yourself, if it was possible

I remember when, out of the blue, we'd decide to play "fouling footie". That was interesting experience.

Offside????

Never used that rule! Always kicked off from a goal kick after conceeding a goal too. None of this centre spot rubbish

I remember when, out of the blue, we'd decide to play "fouling footie". That was interesting experience.

Loved fouling football. Looking back at it now, probably could have died.

Offside????

Never used that rule! Always kicked off from a goal kick after conceeding a goal too. None of this centre spot rubbish

Same. It was so much purer.

we have a contender for most moronic title and thread on the site this year...

reduce the importance of tactics? wth?

and your man utd approach to managing is nothing short of ridiculous..

a manager is judged by his tactical nous and ability to ge the most out of the players he has....

and imo the tactical engine in this version is muchly improved to the last .. which is progress my friend

Fm09 players are unique in that they will gladly complain that SI are doing a crappy job even though their miles ahead of the competition....

play cm (or any manager game ) and then come back and tell me the tactical side isnt up to scratch

Reducing the importance of tactics would only increase the importance of team talks and press conferences, which are already overly influential.

I took Lincoln from league 2 to the championship with back to back promotions. I did it with using a pretty much default 4-4-2 with the default personal instructions for each position. The only thing I have been changing is the mentality to get rid of the too big gap comment. I have spent 0 on transfers and my team is not something even close to exceptional. If my success id because an exploit it is one in the default instructions. I don't think the tactic in itself are that important, I think it is more of finding one that suites your players and give them the opportunity to perform their best. That is why one tactic wont work with every team.

I don't watch my football as I find it rather boring, but the little I have seen is that every team can fail tactically even the likes of Man UTD and Arsenal and when they do nothing works. So tactics are important maybe less so with a great team but in the end it is all about finding a playstyle that cuts through your opponents.

the tactics on the game is crap no proper instructions. the sliders want removing because since when do managers go to thier players i want u to slide ur passing up 3 to the left.

the tactics on the game is crap no proper instructions. the sliders want removing because since when do managers go to thier players i want u to slide ur passing up 3 to the left.

Did you even bother to read wwfan's post? Of course no manager uses sliders. But this is a game using a computer. We can't just issue verbal instructions because the technology isn't here yet. The sliders are designed to translate into real life. I have no issue with the use of sliders. I just don't personally believe the system is clear enough.

the tactics on the game is crap no proper instructions. the sliders want removing because since when do managers go to thier players i want u to slide ur passing up 3 to the left.

What manager IRL has a poo in the middle of the first half? Yet I was able to do it last night.

I also ate my dinner during a match once, but i'm yet to see it happen IRL.

SIOSI this game just isn't realistic!

I think some people need to consider what FM tactics represent in relation to real life management. It's not just what a manager tells his team to do on the pitch, it's also aspects of training that cannot be represented in FM's training module.

For instance, you have set your team to play corners to the six yard box with your CB's on near and far post. That is not something that a real manager would shout from the touchlines, he would however have his team practice this in training so that they could potentially use it in game.

Bearing in mind that tactics is incorperating a number of aspects of the managerial world i would say that it needs a lot of emphasis, wouldn't you?

u dont have to shout verbal things thats not what im saying i mean instead of sliders use drop down menus with a few options to pick from

u dont have to shout verbal things thats not what im saying i mean instead of sliders use drop down menus with a few options to pick from

Stealing your previous posts. What manager uses a drop down menu to tell his players how to pass?

FALSE...

I play 4-4-2 and I'm winning everything with Derby!

u dont have to shout verbal things thats not what im saying i mean instead of sliders use drop down menus with a few options to pick from

As Nomis07 said, no manager uses drop-down menus, so if you have a problem with sliders then you should have a problem with drop-down menus. I think menus would be horrible anyway because the sheer amount of instructions required would make it cumbersome and boring. Sliders are the simplest approach and make the most sense. It just needs to be made easier to understand and more intuitive.

the only one thing i agree with is the AI managed teams cant put together squads including young talent in a long term game...

There are 3 golden rules to tacics, Defensive, Normal and Attacking, you need to use the right system at the right time. the game is only hard or easy depending on your knowledge of knowing what to do and when to do it. as is the same IRL!!

of course i don't agree with OP that tactics are not really that important irl, i can undestand where he's comming from. sometimes you wish eventhough you told your play to do x it would be nice to see him do y sometimes. or just to use his braines.

the problem with tactical inteface for me is double-edged. it is too complicated (number of sliders) but it doesn't give me enough options i'd like to at the same time. for example there are 20 notches for closing down or even time wasting but i can't instruct my winger to move centrally or drop deeper when we have ball. it's interesting...

"In FM09, it is still very easy to get the best players in your squad within 3-4 years into the game, with almost any team, and if at that time you figured out the tactic that exploits the game engine, you start winning everything very easily, and the game is NO MORE FUN."

Have you ever try to play in the Belgian or any other medium league? i guess not.

Also you don't have to use any exploits , go to opponent's game history , look what tactics beat them and use the same .

Reading your stats after a game clarifies why you didn't won , its isn't space science or exploiting to perfect the way your team plays.

"After all, the most important thing is the quality of the players. "

I have not play fm09 but i do not believe that it changed so much by stop trying to be realistic , i mean in all previous versions the trick was not to find the best player around but the one to do the job right ; if it did changed then i apologise .

"Likewise, the game is no fun if somebody starts with ManUtd, just doesn't master the tactics, and can't win a game whicever line-up he choses."

The exciting thing about football is that the best team doesn't always win. After all it is 11 men vs 11 men blood ,fire and dust.

"If only SI would reduce the effect of tactics in the game engine, this problem would be solved, and honestly the game would be more realistic for gos's sake!!!"

So let's say playing in Russia means that you will not be able to win anything in Europe because your best players will leave and quality is all that matters ; now that i think of it if you are let's say a just promoted club in the Portuguese league and you have to play against Porto , Benfica and Sporting in the raw you can safely go for vacations .

Cool!

one thing that needs to be looked at is Managers and the ability they have. the ME on FM09 isnt the same as real life but it represents it etc, Yet we have managers that are made to be as they are IRL and play there style of football. the thing is Only certain tactics work on FM and some managers dont resemble there Real Life worth based on what they represent in the game..

just as an example i never see Villa under O'neil push the top 4 because he has a decent squad and he's playing a good system IRL, i think either the villa players suck or O'Neil's manager profiel instructions are useless because they dont work in the ME, so somthing on that note needs looking at..

In real life if a manager played exactly the same tactic week in, week out - yes, Man U, Chelsea, et al - they would quickly start to LOSE every game. Sure, an exhibition game, a charity match where a 16 year old nobody manages the team for a day, I guess someone COULD get a result without much tweaking. But ask yourself why teams like Chelsea don't just pick on any manager they fancy, why Man U doesn't just get rid of the expensive Fergie and employ Backpackant who'll do the job for 50k a year plus bonuses.

To suggest Fergie and Wenger do not ponder their tactics before EVERY SINGLE MATCH, be it agains Chelsea, Wigan, Barcelona, Grimsby, or Hereford, is just plain stupid. Otherwise, you would never have giant killings in the FA cup, Hull would never beat Arsenal or Tottenham or Newcastle or draw with Liverpool or Chelsea; Man United would never lose to Derby; and any number of supposedly freakish results.

Personally, I have a lot of success with the default tactics, which I often tweak slightly depending on who I'm playing and what my form has been like. Nothing Earth-shattering except when I'm chasing the game or experimenting in friendlies.

On a more general note, I really wish people would stop preaching their opinions at us as if EVERYONE feels the way they do. The last couple of years really has seen an increase in petulance and wah-wah-wah-ing on these forums. The whole "I know better than SI" and "God, how dumb/lazy/incompetent are SI if even *I* can see this is wrong" etc is really getting me down. Boo hoo.

The game ain't perfect but posting as if you've been personally slighted is just childish in my opinion.

reduce the effects of tactics, :D:D thats the funniest thing ive heard today. rofl

what planet are you from/do you have a mental age of 2/do you know what football is.

lets look at the game of life, should we reduce the amount of air.

In real life if a manager played exactly the same tactic week in, week out - yes, Man U, Chelsea, et al - they would quickly start to LOSE every game. Sure, an exhibition game, a charity match where a 16 year old nobody manages the team for a day, I guess someone COULD get a result without much tweaking.

But to suggest Fergie and Wenger do not ponder their tactics before EVERY SINGLE MATCH, be it agains Chelsea, Wigan, Barcelona, Grimsby, or Hereford, is just plain stupid. Otherwise, you would never have giant killings in the FA cup, Hull would never beat Arsenal or Tottenham or Newcastle or draw with Liverpool or Chelsea; Man United would never lose to Derby; and any number of supposedly freakish results.

Personally, I have a lot of success with the default tactics, which I often tweak slightly depending on who I'm playing and what my form has been like. Nothing Earth-shattering except when I'm chasing the game or experimenting in friendlies.

On a more general note, I really wish people would stop preaching their opinions at us as if EVERYONE feels the way they do. The last couple of years really has seen an increase in petulance and wah-wah-wah-ing on these forums. The whole "I know better than SI" and "God, how dumb/lazy/incompetent are SI if even *I* can see this is wrong" etc is really getting me down. Boo hoo.

The game ain't perfect but posting as if you've been personally slighted is just childish in my opinion.

I would like to add an example to this. A few weeks ago Man Utd beat Chelsea three nil. Fergies decision to try to freeze out the Chelsea fullbacks was praised by the media as one of the biggest reasons for the victory. To my knowledge Fergie does not employ this tactic in every game, had he decided to approach the game with the tactic he used the previous week Chelsea may well have triumphed.

Tactics have no bearing whatsoever in FM09 in my opinion.

***There is not ONE tactic that someone has succesfully used that has then been reproduced to the same extent by someone else.***

Just check out the challenge threads. Plenty have done ridiculously well' date=' saying how easy it all is but refuse to help others get the same success. Why? I'll give you one guess...

Put bluntly I would take anyone's extreme success with a very big pinch of salt [/quote']

thats where your wrong, i can tell you that there are a few title winning tactics created by members that have been reproduced in other members games.

lets start with my favourite Loversleapers "tactical central and insight, i have won the prem 2 with huddersfield town and about to beat ajax in the euro cup final, and i bet others using them will tell ya the same.

moj's role theory tactic

cleons tactics

and there are lots more

I would like to add an example to this. A few weeks ago Man Utd beat Chelsea three nil. Fergies decision to try to freeze out the Chelsea fullbacks was praised by the media as one of the biggest reasons for the victory. To my knowledge Fergie does not employ this tactic in every game, had he decided to approach the game with the tactic he used the previous week Chelsea may well have triumphed.

Yeah every big team changes tactics from match to match. They are not big changes like changing their style of play or their formation but they do things like target certain players, employ certain strategies like for example if the opposition are weak on set pieces or their goalkeeper is dodgy on crosses then they will tweak accordingly.

very true jod which is what fergi does effectively, thats why man u have now gone something like 1290 minutes without letting a goal in.

thats where your wrong, i can tell you that there are a few title winning tactics created by members that have been reproduced in other members games.

lets start with my favourite Loversleapers "tactical central and insight, i have won the prem 2 with huddersfield town and about to beat ajax in the euro cup final, and i bet others using them will tell ya the same.

moj's role theory tactic

cleons tactics

and there are lots more

I do not believe I am wrong.

I do not believe I am wrong.

George Bush used to say that a lot.

Then again, I'd trust you a lot more than him.