Syrup & Honey - A tactical discussion

Before I get into the details of this thread, id first like to point out that, this thread is more about different ideas and a different way of making tactics. Rather than it being something to download and use. I will not be putting the tactic up for download, as I want this to be discussion based. If you try and emulate my success, you may have different results that I did due to what I changed/didnt change and how I may see things happening on the pitch.

This is by far the best formation that I have used on FM this year. It offers great defensive cover, aswell as plenty of numbers going forward. I have used this with lots of different teams and had simliar success across the board. I've used Arsenal, Lyon, Shakhtar, New York, Sheffield United, Chengdu Blades and WS Woulwe.

I also know Buxton as used this too and had simliar success. We threw a lot of ideas around for a few weeks on how to set this up, so a lot of work and effort got put into this, not only by me but Buxton too.

Most people play with a back 4 on FM, but as usual I wanted to move away from that again. I've always liked the thought of proper wingbacks supporting attacks. So when Buxton told me the shape he was thinking of using, I also had a crack at it. I was impressed from the way it played and there are also many ways in which you can set this up.

I'll explain more in the next post.

I'm going to split this thread up, so each reply covers something different. That was I can fill it up with as much info as possible about my team, players, settings and tactic used. This way, its easier to relay the information.

Before I get into the details of this thread, id first like to point out that, this thread is more about different ideas and a different way of making tactics. Rather than it being something to download and use. I will not be putting the tactic up for download, as I want this to be discussion based. If you try and emulate my success, you may have different results that I did due to what I changed/didnt change and how I may see things happening on the pitch.

This is by far the best formation that I have used on FM this year. It offers great defensive cover, aswell as plenty of numbers going forward. I have used this with lots of different teams and had simliar success across the board. I've used Arsenal, Lyon, Shakhtar, New York, Sheffield United, Chengdu Blades and WS Woulwe.

I also know Buxton as used this too and had simliar success. We threw a lot of ideas around for a few weeks on how to set this up, so a lot of work and effort got put into this, not only by me but Buxton too.

Most people play with a back 4 on FM, but as usual I wanted to move away from that again. I've always liked the thought of proper wingbacks supporting attacks. So when Buxton told me the shape he was thinking of using, I also had a crack at it. I was impressed from the way it played and there are also many ways in which you can set this up.

I'll explain more in the next post.

I'm going to split this thread up, so each reply covers something different. That was I can fill it up with as much info as possible about my team, players, settings and tactic used. This way, its easier to relay the information.

The Formation

As you can see it covers most areas of the pitch. When attacking it becomes a 343 of some kind, due to the wingacks high mentality. But when defending it falls back to 541. All good formations should play 2 seperate shapes when attacking and defending. Flexibilty is one of the most important factors for me when choosing a formation as it offers diversity if needed.

I best just point out before I carry on, that this shape exploits nothing in the match engine apart from space and weaknesses in the oppositions tactics. So dont start with the 'oh my god exploit' nonsesnse please.

The back three, there job is simple, to just defend. The wingbacks are both, attack and defend.

The central midfielders are purely attacking, as I wanted to move away from the general thoughts that you cannot have success without a holding player. So purely for this purpose, I choose not to have any holding players.

The wingers jobs are both different, one is more like a striker and set up to score as many goals as possible. While the other, is more of a crosser of the ball and his strenghts are his build up play.

The striker is m main source of goals, just like any other lone striker. However, he does play his bit in build up play too and even gets a fair amount of assists.

I'll cover the areas of the tactics a little better further on.

The team instructions are all default as I've used all individual settings instead. Things like tempo. d-line and time wasting, can be changed game by game. So setting them for me is not a universal thing, more a tweak done on a game by game basis. This tactic is more about getting the best out of an individual, rather than playing a certain way as a unit. I've done topics what show you how to play as a unit many times, but on the forums I don't see many topics where a tactic is set up to get the best out of individuals. So hopefully this will give a little insight into this.

The Defence

While it consists of a back 5, the wingbacks are quite adventerous. Because I play a flat three central defenders it allows the wingbacks to get forward as much as possible. The three central defenders jobs is to hold a strong defensive line and deal with any quick counter attacks, should my wingbacks get caught out of position.

As for the wingbacks, they both have very different tasks to do. My right wingback is more attack minded and gets forward more than my left one, due to his stats been quite better for getting forward.

Here are my defence settings that I use;

All three centebacks are set up the same. However if you wanted to, you could have the two outer defenders on man marking. I do this normally but the current defenders I have, lack the quality to a good job at man marking.

Id also prefer mixed passing so I keep possession a little better, but againmI think my players are not good enough to use their own judgements. If you find the three defenders are going for the same balls alter the mentality slightly and closing down and see if this improves it. But as a rule they are normally fine.

Here is the right wingbacks settings;

As you'll see hes on the last notch of normal mentality. He's asked to dribble with the ball because hes got a stat of 15 for dribbling. If you look at the WBL's settings you will notice they are very different.

If its a game were I might not be favourite to win then I might ask him to be a little more cautious with his forward runs. But as I am only in The Championship, it doesn't matter too much at the moment as I am probably the strongest team here. This wingback chips in with a few assists too, which is encouraging.

Left winback settings;

As you see he is a lot more cautious and this is because hes weak at going forward in comparision to the right sided player. I could have him more attacking, but this would have an impact on my left winger too and upset the way I've asked him to play. I'm not too bothered about overlapping on the left as I want my winger to do all the crossing.

This wingaback doesn't have tight marking as hes not as far forward. So I really don't need for him to tight mark unless I make him more attacking. I gave the right wingback tight marking to help him track back more, especially with him the being the player to be caught out of position at times. It also makes him force more interceptions than usual and can sometimes lead to quick attacks.

Midfield

There are many ways you could set up the midfield pair if you wished. You could use two holding players, one attacking and one holding player, two attacking etc. Its really upto you how you set them up. However I choose to have one attacking player and one more normal midfielder. But the more normal midfield I tweak on a game by game basis. Hes never defensive minded though, but I tweak how attacking I want him to be, based on the opposition I'm playing.

The right sided MC settings;

Quiet attacking really for a MC and can get caught out if the opposition break forward quickly. But this is a risk I like to take and accept, due to the way I play. Every tactic has weaknesses as its all dependant on how you play and what you expect. I can't expect to attack with as many players as I do and not get caught out at times.

Midfield left settings;

These are the base settings I use and tweak game by game. Everything is pretty standard and is down to you to set.

Attack

My guess would be that more people will be interested in this part of the tactic more so than the defensive side

Right winger settings;

This is almost my second striker, especially with the amount of goals he scores. Some might think his settings are bizzare, but there not. Hes set up like this so he can score goals, rather than passing or crossing. A few of his goals have come from crosses from the left and hes been running into the box and taps it in, at the far post.

Left winger settings;

Again a bit different from the right wingers settings. Especially the mentality part. Because my right wingback is attacking I had to give the right winger a higher mentality also, so they dont clash at times.

The job of the left winger is to cross the ball simple as. I dont expect him to score many goals in all honesty, thats not his job. Even though my striker is not the tallest player or very good in the air, I still want crosses into box. If my striker misses the ball, there is a god chance my right winger could get on the end og it and create something.

Striker settings;

Pretty basic instructions in all honesty. All I want him to do is put the ball into the back of the net or play someone in whos in a better position. He grabs a fair few assist for a striker playing upfront on his own.

Stats and Results

As you'd expect the majority of my goals come from the right winger and the striker. This was my aim, so I'm glad it turned out like id hoped.

I got promoted the first week in March, so as soon as I got promoted I decided to give my young keeper some first team games. Thats why my conceded might seem a little high, as he let 17 goals in 13 games were as my main keeper only let 24 in, in all competitions.

Brilliant informative posts Cleon Will use this as a basis for my tactics.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by coolbananas:

Brilliant informative posts Cleon Will use this as a basis for my tactics.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, let me know how you get on

Cleon - Do you know of many teams IRL that use this type of tactic?

Also, I'm not that great at tactic building/tweaking so have just copied your tactic, and will try it with my Rangers squad.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spikester:

Cleon - Do you know of many teams IRL that use this type of tactic?

Also, I'm not that great at tactic building/tweaking so have just copied your tactic, and will try it with my Rangers squad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A few use simliar tactics but use a back 4 and DMC instead. But most of the big teams play with the same shape atacking wise.

I wouldn't just copy the tactic, its set up for my players. So wont work for you, im sure of that. You need to adapt it for your side.

I play this formation but with one CB pushed up to DM, is this not as effective?

Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joey-B:

I play this formation but with one CB pushed up to DM, is this not as effective?

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They play slightly different but by much though. I just didn't want to use a holding player whatsoever

Cleon

Very Interesting post. Gives you lots of options.

Couldn't you use this as a basis for 5-3-2 (play like the Europeans) as English Teams aren't used to it

Ok thanks.

And could I ask, why "Syrup & Honey"?

i feel like making this tactic into set as attack & defend just like u stated tweak game by game depend on which opponent maybe attack on weak/even and defend on strong :X.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rob123:

Cleon

Very Interesting post. Gives you lots of options.

Couldn't you use this as a basis for 5-3-2 (play like the Europeans) as English Teams aren't used to it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny you should say that, I just told Buxton I might try and 5-3-2. I imagine its pretty much the same settings though

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Ok thanks.

And could I ask, why "Syrup & Honey"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duffy

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jinli:

i feel like making this tactic into set as attack & defend just like u stated tweak game by game depend on which opponent maybe attack on weak/even and defend on strong :X. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

very easy to do

how does the tactic exploit the oppositions space cleon.

nice work BTW.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by micro-ice:

how does the tactic exploit the oppositions space cleon.

nice work BTW. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because it creates space and draws the oppositions player out.

but what allows it to create space and draw players out of positions. i whant to apply this to my tactics.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by micro-ice:

but what allows it to create space and draw players out of positions. i whant to apply this to my tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The shape and forward runs. For it to be possible in any tactic you first need to understand the strengths and weakness of your own. Its not as easy as just applying someone elses logic sadly.

Great post Cleon.

Couldn't help but chuckle when I saw good old Seyfo Soley in your team. I always sign him in my lower league games.

There's a few other players like Kalouda and Bounanotte that I sign alot, so I can see where the settings you've used work well with these players, as I know these fellas well.

I like the look of this. As you know I'm a staunch 4-4-2 variant man and have had a few failed tries with similar formations. It's nice to see you go into detail about using the indivudual settings for players, rather than the global team settings. I think the same principals should be used to get the most out of any tactics, inevitably why people have success and others don't with some of the offerings on the forums here.

Someone is going to get me away from 4-4-2 variants, so it might as well be you Cleon.

Out of interest, how are you with opposition instructions Cleon?

I'm one of those who changes OI match by match, but always have "weaker foot" set on all opponents, plus closing down for dangerous or flair players.

What do you look for is the question I suppose, if anything.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:

Out of interest, how are you with opposition instructions Cleon?

I'm one of those who changes OI match by match, but always have "weaker foot" set on all opponents, plus closing down for dangerous or flair players.

What do you look for is the question I suppose, if anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I ignore them 90% of the time in all honesty. The only one I would use if any was the weaker foot one for wingers. As for the rest, they'd conflict with my own settings

Manu uses this shape and pretty much Ronaldo has the same instructions as ur AMR if im not wrong?

They use the shape of a back 4 and a DMC instead, am i right Cleon?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:

Great post Cleon.

Couldn't help but chuckle when I saw good old Seyfo Soley in your team. I always sign him in my lower league games.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got him in my Millwall game and whilst he's quality, he does seem to have a bit of an eggshell personality.

By the way - have just switched to your 4-4-2 after a slump in form looked set to lose us a play-off spot. Beat P***ce in the derby 4-2 first game and the Mackems 1-0 in the next. Keep you posted on how things develop.

(apolgies to Cleon for derail )

After experimenting with the 4312 for a bit I am definitely going back to this shape in my Newcastle game.

...and my first result with it

Great thread as usual Cleon!

I am curious about your CM settings - especially the attacking one. Is he a goal scoring 'Lampard-esque' type player or is he more of a creative force?

Creative, Diego plays there and the stats are above

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buxton:

After experimenting with the 4312 for a bit I am definitely going back to this shape in my Newcastle game.

...and my first result with it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do your settings differ?

Another quality post there Cleon excellent read ive been working on a kind 4-3-1-2 myself but might put it on hold to go with this.

Looks good in theory but wether i can implement it is another question only thing that spoilt it is the filter at work doesn't show imgshack for some bizarre reason so ill have to wait till im in Bahrain again before i can have a bash, see how my grimsby side will fare with this once i can be bothered to start a new game again im such a sore loser when i lose games i delete my save game and end up having "to get back in" to fm.

Once again though another quality thread, keep at it and ignore the idiots.

Hi Cleon, I decided to have one final go at fm 2008. I must admit that I never seem to get things right, which makes the game very frustrating. So far so good, although there is still a lot of room for improvement.

I seem to struggle a lot against a 4-1-3-2 with 3 cm's.... In the middle of the park it is 4 vs 2, which causes a lot of problems. No matter what settings I use, I cannot seem to get a result.

Also, what are your gk settings?

My keeper is just the default keeper settings.

Using this shape you struggle against 3 mc's? can you be more specific please as to what kind of problems.

Thanks for the comments Wes

Great thread once again!

Just wondering if you prefer to play with a certain with, or do you alter this from game to game?

And seem to stuggle a bit with the keeper distribution. Do you deliver the ball to anyone?

hi clean, looks a great tactic, hope this question doesn't sound too dumb. Just wondering about playing shapes similar to this in lower leagues such as BSP etc. I've always struggled playing formations other than 442 in these leagues and i was just wondering whether you think players in these leagues have the ability to play formations such as this or whether it might be too creative for them?

There always seems to be an mc who is left unmarked and I am getting punished by long shots. Also, it seems that the wingbacks are running around without purpose against this shape, even if I set focus passing to down both flanks

I play narrow, but change depending on how I think I'm doing in a game. As the formation is quite narrow, especially when attacking.

If you've got a good centeback whos comfy on the ball, you can distribute to him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">hi clean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol cleon

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fattyg:

hi clean, looks a great tactic, hope this question doesn't sound too dumb. Just wondering about playing shapes similar to this in lower leagues such as BSP etc. I've always struggled playing formations other than 442 in these leagues and i was just wondering whether you think players in these leagues have the ability to play formations such as this or whether it might be too creative for them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any shape can work in any division, as long as you set it up for your players.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There always seems to be an mc who is left unmarked and I am getting punished by long shots. Also, it seems that the wingbacks are running around without purpose against this shape, even if I set focus passing to down both flanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This happens when you use this shape or the AI? if your wingbacks are running around like headless chickens, then sort them out and change the settings to suit them i.e take tight marking and man marking off. It sounds like you've just copied the settings I used...

I never pass down flanks either as I ask my wingers to cut in.

Interesting setup Cleon & Buxton. Just curious, do you focus play down the flanks with this tactic?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uncle_Sam:

Interesting setup Cleon & Buxton. Just curious, do you focus play down the flanks with this tactic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I leave mine mixed as I don't really have anyone other than wingbacks on the wing. As my wingers cut in to SC position.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

I never pass down flanks either as I ask my wingers to cut in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, question answered, lol. So I guess you leave passing mixed than.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uncle_Sam:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

I never pass down flanks either as I ask my wingers to cut in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, question answered, lol. So I guess you leave passing mixed than. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly do

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uncle_Sam:

Interesting setup Cleon & Buxton. Just curious, do you focus play down the flanks with this tactic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mixed, as Cleon does. I have my AMR and AML set up to swap during the game and a lot of my goals come from the players cutting inside on their strong foot and scoring into the far corner.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buxton:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uncle_Sam:

Interesting setup Cleon & Buxton. Just curious, do you focus play down the flanks with this tactic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mixed, as Cleon does. I have my AMR and AML set up to swap during the game and a lot of my goals come from the players cutting inside on their strong foot and scoring into the far corner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats what I like to do aswell, when I got players who can play on both wings. Shame I've not got any

i played atletico vs celta in copa del rewy and in first half o losse 1:0 and any shot on his gol.

i finish 1:1 with 8 shot and possesion 43% but celta have 14 shot 57% possesion 82% good passes

Do you guys use counter attack at all?

Nope, no Counter.

Cleon - I don't think it matters too much about having players that can play comfortably on both sides, I mean I am playing Oba Martins as the AML and his last 5 appearances have seen 8-8-8-6-8 ratings.